Hi, it’s Patrik Hutzel from INTENSIVECAREHOTLINE.COM where we instantly improve the lives for Families of critically ill Patients in Intensive Care, so that you can make informed decisions, have PEACE OF MIND, real power, real control and so that you can influence decision
making fast, even if you’re not a doctor or a nurse in Intensive Care!
This is another episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED” and in last week’s episode I answered another question from our readers and the question was
The ICU Doctor Hopes For My Brother’s Life To End. Help!
You can check out last week’s question by clicking on the link here.
In this episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED” I want to answer a question from one of my clients Megan, as part of my 1:1 consulting and advocacy service! Megan’s brother is in ICU and
Megan is asking if it is true that his brother’s mental health issue can be an obstacle for his recovery.
My Brother is in ICU and Is It True That His Mental Health Issue Can Be an Obstacle For His Recovery?
“You can also check out previous 1:1 consulting and advocacy sessions with me and Megan here.”
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Patrik: That was it.
Megan: That was what she wanted. Oh, the other thing, just to tell you, she said “The cancers everywhere. It’s in his lungs, it’s in his spine. It’s in his hips.” I’d already looked on your website at this point, I said, “I want evidence of this.”
Patrik: Good.
Megan: So she took me across, I saw the report with his name. I said, “But it says lung cavity clear, there’s no carcinoma. There are no secondaries here.”
Megan: “Oh,” she said, “I’m sorry, I’m getting muddled up with another patient.”
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Megan: But that’s not good enough, is it?
Patrik: No, that’s not good. And so that means she potentially has in the back of her mind, the diagnosis of another patient and she’s, for whatever reason, mixing it up with Ryan’s situation to potentially justify an end of life. That’s definitely not good enough.
Megan: Yes. And she said, “Oh, because of his mental health issues, he won’t want to have treatments and so he’ll come out of this ITU, his muscle will have deteriorated and then he’ll have to face cancer treatment.”
Patrik: Okay. It’s good that you mentioned that because again, we’re getting a bigger picture there. If she’s referring to his mental health as a potential obstacle to take the next steps in his recovery if he comes out of ICU.
Megan: That’s what she’s saying-
Patrik: Yeah, sure. But that’s why I think it’s so important that you bring this psychiatrist in. Because just her job is to deal with the ICU issues. Let somebody else take care of everything else once he leaves ICU, and let’s not her worry about what might happen outside of ICU. That’s not her job.
Megan: It’s not her job is it, she’s made such judgements. And then she said, “Oh, the Anglican vicar is going to come and see Ryan.” And I said, “Well, okay.” Because we’re Christians. And she said, “Oh, I’m a Christian.” I thought, well you don’t really act like one. She said, “I have a question, where do you worship?” I said, “I don’t. It’s my own private thing.” And she said, “Oh, I go to this church. And there’s blah, blah, blah…”
And I was thinking, first of all, I’m not interested. And secondly, if you’re such a Christian, why are you saying these terrible things about Ryan?
Patrik: Yeah. Did you know, and I’m digressing here for a moment. You followed this whole Alfie Evans case, didn’t you?
Megan: Yes, I did.
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Patrik: Most of it was funded by the Catholic Church. This whole campaign was funded by the Catholic Church. Now, I’m not Catholic. I would call myself a Christian, but I’m not Catholic. And I don’t approve of most of the things that the Catholics are doing-
Megan: No.
Patrik: … but in Alfie Evan’s case-
Megan: They were marvelous.
Patrik: … as much as Charlie Gard’s case, you don’t need to be Catholic to be a decent human.
Megan: No, you do not.
Patrik: And, in this situation, I fully supported the Catholic Church in terms of what they were doing, because as much as Alder Hey was trying to set an example or the courts, the Catholic Church was trying to set an example too.
Megan: Indeed.
Patrik: It’s a conflict of ideology. It’s ideology.
Megan: Yes. It is indeed. Spot on.
Patrik: As I said, I’m not a friend of the Catholics by any means, but when it comes to life or death, the Catholic Church has some doctrines that in my mind make sense.
Megan: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Very pro-life.
Patrik: That’s the word, very pro-life. We all die, but there’s no need to hasten it.
Megan: There’s no need to hasten it. And who are these doctors to make these judgments, anyway?
Patrik: Correct.
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Megan: Who are they? God alone, this is in God’s hands. That’s what I think.
Patrik: Correct. And I think, bringing it back to what she said in terms of, because of mental health, he wouldn’t want to deal with anything outside of ICU. Her job is ICU. I think your job at this point in time, maybe the quicker you can get somebody in who knows Ryan, who knows about his mental health issues. I think the better it is to again, move it into another direction and let them know, I’m thinking this through. I don’t need your
judgment on what Ryan might or might not do once he’s out of ICU.
Megan: Yes, because it’s not up to them to decide. I just find it astonishing.
Patrik: It is astonishing, it’s terrible.
Megan: It is! It’s just, their job, as you say, is a medical job, to get Ryan out of ICU alive. That is what they’re job is. That’s their remit. They don’t have any other remit. They don’t know what Ryan’s life was like. It’s not up to them too-
Patrik: No. And they also won’t know, if Ryan is getting out of ICU alive, as I said yesterday, they don’t know what Ryan’s life looks like six days after ICU, six weeks after ICU, six months, or even six years after, they have no idea.
Megan: They have no idea. And having made all these judgments about him, they have no interest either.
Patrik: No, that’s right.
Megan: They’re interested in things that are not their remit, but when he leaves, they’re not going to come around and check and help, are they?
Patrik: No. So that’s why the more people you can bring in-
Megan: The better.
Patrik: …if you can bring in the psychiatrist, and again, get them potentially to talk about the future, all of that. Rally the troops and I still feel that you need to speak to an oncologist as well. I still feel that way because they are making this cancer, and it is a big deal, but it can’t be the deciding factor.
Megan: No. They’re making cancer and the mental health issues, but Patrik, surely other people, mental health issues are fairly widespread.
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Patrik: Oh, very widespread. The reality is that probably if people have a serious mental health issue, there is a much higher chance to end up in ICU, even.
Megan: Yes. What do they say, everybody who goes in there with a mental health issue, they are going to give them great big dose drugs and finish them off?
Patrik: No, certainly not. You know what to say, and for example, what I’ve seen over the years, I’ll give you another quick example just to put this in perspective. I used to work in a burn unit and a lot of times burn victims have mental health issues. They put their own house on fire, or some of that. So, if you think about severe burns, you would have every reason to not continue. So you basically have somebody in ICU who had severe burns
because of a mental health issue. They put their own house on fire or whatever the case may be. They end up in ICU for weeks, sometimes for months with severe, severe burns, and they go home, eventually.
Megan: Yes.
Patrik: Well, and they go home eventually.
Megan: Yes.
Patrik: Right. So, that’s just the reality. I have no idea what those people’s lives look like down the line. I have absolutely no idea.
Megan: Nope.
Patrik: Right? Just again, to give you perspective.
Megan: Yes, yes. That they are not written off, even though it’s possible they may do it again and come back again.
Patrik: That’s right.
Megan: They’re not written off, because they are-
Patrik: They’re alive.
Megan: Exactly, and they have just as much right, and who is Dr. Gie anyway to say who lives and who dies?
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Patrik: That’s right.
Megan: I think it’s terrible, but the thing finally to say is that, to tell me… You see, she trapped me, rather like the other guy, and she trapped me by telling me that he is literally riddled with cancer. It was in his lungs, and so on. She trapped me, and then, it was only because I’d seen your website that I said, “I want evidence.”
Patrik: Good.
Megan: And if I hadn’t said that, I would have left that hospital believing that Ryan had cancer in his lungs, and he doesn’t, and Patrik, they’ve done so many x-rays on him the poor man has been x-rayed out of existence almost.
Patrik: Sure. Yeah.
Megan: There’s nothing there. Imagine, I would have walked out of there and I would have phoned up everybody and all relatives and said, “Ryan’s riddled with it. It’s hopeless.” I might even have agreed with her. I mean, I sort of was semi-thinking, “Maybe she’s right. If it’s extended this far, the cancer, maybe she’s right.” And just thank God, and I thank God for your website because I then insisted that I wouldn’t accept anything until I saw
the proof, and the proof wasn’t there.
Patrik: Yeah, that’s right. That’s, again, why I think if you can talk to an oncologist, I think it would really be helpful, and I know they probably don’t want you to talk to one, but if you… This is, again, what we’ve done with another client not too long ago, where we really asked for all this. For the specialist opinions, right?
Patrik: To get their view, because ICUs are not… There is a specialist for ICU, but you want to still know about, “Okay, what does the oncologist have to say?” Or when it comes to strokes, or we’ve had this… I think I mentioned that with a client who had seven cardiac arrests you want to get the view of a cardiologist. In Ryan’s situation, I think, the only doctor that I would like to talk to is an oncologist. There are no other specialists at the moment that I think is needed.
Megan: It’s the oncologist.
Patrik: It’s the oncologist.
Megan: Yes. You see, the first day, she said, “Oh, maybe they can give him nimodipine, if he wants it.” But then the second day, she’d had a meeting. They’d had one of their dreaded meetings, Patrik, and her attitude was completely different.
Patrik: Yeah. You said that. It all changed after the meeting.
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Megan: It’s always these meetings, these horrid meetings. Terrible meetings. So, then she said that the only thing they’re prepared to offer him is hormone treatment.
Patrik: But you only heard that second hand? You have not heard that from a-
Megan: No.
Patrik: Right, and that is what concerns me, and again, she’s telling you Ryan’s ridden with cancer, and yet, you know that’s not the case, and that’s why I think-
Megan: No.
Patrik: You know what you could do? Do you know what you could do?
Megan: Yes.
Patrik: You could ask for the oncologist report. Yes. Yeah, you could do that.
Megan: Yes, what a good idea.
Patrik: You can ask for the oncologist’s report because once you’ve seen that, you also will potentially have a phone number.
Megan: Yes. I’ll ask. I’ll ask.
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Patrik: Right.
Megan: Do you think there will be one?
Patrik: There must be.
Megan: There must be.
Patrik: There must be. There must be an oncologist report, and if there isn’t, well, but… And here’s the thing, if there isn’t, then it would be even more important to get one in.
Megan: Yes.
Patrik: Right? So, one way or another, just by you trying to get an oncologist report, you will win, because either there is one and you can see it, or there isn’t and then that’s your time to ask for one.
Megan: Yes, because when I brought up the oncology business with one of the other consultants, they told me, “No, that’s not relevant at this point.” That’s what they told me.
Patrik: I think it’s very relevant because you want to talk about the future and the oncologist-
Megan: Yes.
Patrik: That’s right, and the oncologist wants to talk about the future, too.
Megan: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Do you know Patrik, it shouldn’t be this difficult, should it?
Patrik: It shouldn’t be this difficult, but at the same time, not many oncologists would have patients in ICU. There are, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not there. Even though cancer patients are often sick, there are not too many cancer patients in ICU, generally.
Megan: In ICU. There is a child in there at the moment with hair loss.
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Patrik: Right, yeah.
Megan: And they are in there. I saw them come in. It was very sad, but that’s probably not the norm, is it? This child must’ve been on chemotherapy, I imagine, by the look.
Patrik: Could be. Could be.
Megan: She’s got the look. No hair and…
Patrik: Right. Right.
Megan: But, yes, it seems the majority, Patrik. I mean, I don’t know anything about it, but talking to the relatives and so on, most of it seems to be pneumonia, heart problems, and who knows if there’s underlying cancer, but as you say, it’s not something that’s a big thing in
there.
The 1:1 consulting session will continue in next week’s episode.
Kind Regards
