Hi, it’s Patrik Hutzel from INTENSIVECAREHOTLINE.COM where we instantly improve the lives for Families of critically ill Patients in Intensive Care, so that you can make informed decisions, have PEACE OF MIND, real power, real control and so that you can influence
decision making fast, even if you’re not a doctor or a nurse in Intensive Care!
This is another episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED“ and in last week’s episode I answered another question from our readers and the question was
My
Brother is Brain Dead in the ICU and the ICU Team Wants to Issue a “Do Not Resuscitate” (DNR) Order. Why is it Important to Know What DNR Status Means?
You can check out last week’s question by clicking on the link here.
In this week’s episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED” I want to answer questions from one of my clients Camille, as part of my 1:1 consulting and advocacy service! Camille’s brother is considered brain dead in the ICU and Camille is asking, why can’t the hospital be transparent of their hospital policy for brain death?
My Brother is Brain-Dead in the ICU and They Won’t Give Me their Hospital Policy of Brain Death. Are They Hiding Something?
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Camille: Yes. And all he did was said, here are some links. Look up some other lawyers. I don’t even know what kind of lawyers to look up. So at for helping me again, it’s just, I don’t know. I call one lawyer. “Oh, we don’t handle that.”
Patrik: Look. I will email him. I’ll copy you in.
Camille: Thank you.
Patrik: But in the meantime, I would really go to the police. That’s what I would do because they might have some ideas for you.
Camille: Okay.
Patrik: And you probably should also mention to the hospital that you are in the process of getting an injunction to keep them on their toes.
Camille: Okay.
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Patrik: Right. Because if they feel like you’re not doing this, we could potentially impact on what they are and they aren’t doing. You’ve already mentioned that on Friday they changed some things which were already an indication to you that they were changing. They were starting to give him feeds and whatnot which they realized, okay, you are
looking for options. Because prior to that they’d basically denied him nutrition.
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: Right. So you have seen that they’ve already changed their approach slightly by you keeping on the pressure a bit. Right.
Camille: I might go and ask them real quick about the event.
Patrik: I think you really do. I think you really do. You need to find out what the DNR means. I won’t be available on the phone in the next while.
Camille: I can email, that’s fine.
Patrik: Yeah, please, please, please. Just email and I will email Pope.
Camille: Thank you.
Patrik: And see whether he gets back to me and we’ll see what happens next. But keep them on their toes. Keep them on their toes.
Camille: Okay. Thank you so much for your help.
Patrik: Okay. Thank you so much. Talk later. Thanks. Bye-bye.
…….
Camille: Hello?
Patrik: Hi, It’s Patrik here from Intensive Care Hotline.
Camille: Hey Patrik.
Patrik: How are you?
Camille: Yes, sir. Well, we’re at the end of our road, I should say.
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Patrik: Why? Tell me.
Camille: Yeah, they just tried to shoot us out of the room, but we just stood our ground and said, “No, if this is our last night, we want to have it in peace and be with our brother.” And so they allowed us to stay here in the room. But they’ve denied him-
Patrik: Is that where you are at the moment?
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right, okay.
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: No lawyer, no attorney will take this on?
Camille: Nope. No they wouldn’t, I’ve talked to them. I’ve been talking to them.
Nobody will take it on.
Patrik: Do you know why?
Camille: Even the Right For Life, something like that.
Patrik: Yeah.
Camille: North Dakota Right For Life, they wouldn’t take it on either.
Patrik: Have they given you any reason why?
Camille: Everybody tries to say something, they’re like, “Oh, I can’t do it that’s out of my jurisdiction.” Some of them would say, “I don’t do that type of law.” But yet it’s criminal and other ones are telling me, “No, I’d have to refer you to somebody else, I’m really booked up, I’m busy.” Things like that.
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Patrik: So basically they’re all giving you a whole lot of… A number of excuses.
Camille: Yes, exactly. So tomorrow at-
Patrik: Right.
Camille: 05:30 PM.
Patrik: Have you gone to the police?
Camille: I have, they said, “They do not interfere with hospital protocol or policy.”
Patrik: Wow, wow. That is unbelievable.
Camille: And we did find out that this hospital is the number one hospital for organ donation.
Patrik: Yes. Well, but I mean even so with organ donation, you don’t have to agree to organ donation, you know what I’m saying?
Camille: No I don’t, yes.
Patrik: I mean your brother might pass away tomorrow, but that doesn’t include organ donation, does it?
Camille: Yes, yes. Exactly.
Patrik: Okay, so you’ve been to the police. Have you been to the court, to any of the local courts?
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Camille: No, I have not gone to the courthouse. Because of your friend-
Patrik: Pope?
Camille: Told me that… Yes, Pope, that it’s a long process and that I do need an attorney.
Patrik: Yep, Yeah.
Camille: So that’s what I fear, that’s what’s going on.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah… You remember a few days ago we were talking about hospital policies, about the withdrawal of treatment policies. We were talking about brain death policies and so forth.
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Have you been given any of the policies?
Camille: No, they will not. They said that I have to talk to the doctor and the doctor will not give them to me.
Patrik: Wow. So, so really there, I mean if the policies were clear cut, they would have nothing to hide and they could just give you.
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Camille: No, no. Exactly.
Patrik: Wow. Are you documenting this?
Camille: Yes, yes.
Patrik: If you’re asking for a policy and they’re not giving you.
Camille: But the problem, our situation is that there are no attorneys to take on this case.
Patrik: Yeah absolutely. Absolutely.
Camille: So it’s like a no-win situation.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah. No, I get it, I get it. Have you looked and I don’t know, I could be naïve there, have you looked at an attorney that is outside of the state of North Dakota or that’s?
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right, right. Wow, I’m absolutely gob smacked by the situation.
Camille: Yes, yes, that’s happening.
Patrik: No attorney will take this on, I can’t believe that.
Camille: I know.
Patrik: You see the other thing, I’ve worked with attorneys in the past, in situations like that. The other thing that I know about attorneys is, they have no idea about the clinical issues. They have absolutely no idea. And they also, they wouldn’t be looking at hospital policies which are from my perspective as a clinical person, which is my leverage point, right?
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: Which is why I’m telling you, “You’ve got to ask for the policies.” And if they’re not giving them to you, they’ve got something to hide.
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Camille: Definitely, yeah.
Patrik: Right.
Camille: Because it’s the number one organ donation in the United States.
Patrik: Oh my goodness. And is that something in the last two days, has the organ donation been brought up over and over again?
Camille: No.
Patrik: Right. So that’s no-
Camille: They just told me, “This is what we’re going to do and that’s it. We’re overriding your power of attorney and we’re going to go according to his will.”
Patrik: Talking about power of attorney, you are the medical power of attorney?
Camille: Yes, but they said it was his will because of the durable state and he signed it, “In the event there’s anything, if I’m sick, what have you and I’m on life support, you are to remove me from life support.”
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Patrik: Yup. And that is in black and white, that’s documented somewhere?
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right, right.
Camille: Yes, that’s on the will. The living will.
Patrik: I see. And that could be, I see, I see. So you are in no position to override that living will?
Camille: No.
Patrik: I can see how that… And is that something you explained to the attorneys as well, that this living will is a reality?
Camille: Once I had said that, they said, “There’s nothing we can do.”
Patrik: Yeah, I can see that. Yes, I can see that, yeah. And yeah, if that’s in black and white you would have a hard, yeah, yeah, I can see that now. Bear in mind though, if you had a hospital policy, potentially there would be something in there. I don’t know, I haven’t seen the policy.
Camille: Yeah. They wouldn’t give me anything.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah. But that in and of itself is inappropriate. They have to be transparent.
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Camille: They’re not.
Patrik: Yeah, of course.
Camille: It’s horrible.
Patrik: Of course they are not. I understand they’re not transparent. Did you talk to Pope about that? Did you get to talk about the living will with Pope?
Camille: I don’t know if I did or not. I am just, I’m so tired.
Patrik: Yes.
Camille: Just trying to comfort my brother in the most that we can, all our strength, all our energy, everything just to be there for him.
Patrik: Absolutely.
Camille: And it’s been kind of difficult to try to do two things at one time. It’s like, I could be doing the court stuff, but then at the same time I’m missing out on spending my last days with him.
Patrik: Yes.
Camille: In the event, they decided to do something now. So it’s just been like a tossup, you know? That’s why I’ve been trying to make the phone call, but nobody’s calling me back. It’s just really crazy.
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Patrik: Unbelievable, unbelievable.
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: Because if you look at professor Pope’s blog, he’s blogging almost every day about similar cases. And he wasn’t-
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: He wouldn’t be blogging about that if nobody would take on those cases.
Camille: Yeah, but he told me, he says he doesn’t know anybody here. He would just kind of give me a suggestion of a list and that was it.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. But what I’m saying is, because I’m reading his blog and he’s blogging about a different case almost every day, right? So that to me means attorneys must be taking on cases in the United States and sometimes he’s blogging internationally as well, whether it’s here in Australia or in the UK or in Canada, right?
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: So if those cases are happening every day and there are attorneys taking on those.
Camille: The state of North Dakota is almost like its own country.
Patrik: Yeah.
Camille: The powerhouse here. And it’s a meat market. The number one meat market I should say, as well.
Patrik: Yeah.
Camille: That’s why so many events are happening here in North Dakota… because of that.
Patrik: Right, right.
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: Because last year I had a client in North Dakota, I think it was in Fargo. I think all we did at the time.
Camille: Yeah, Fargo okay, Fargo is different than where we’re at here.
Patrik: Because I tell you what we did last year, we were just referring back to the North Dakota law and that was enough for the ICU to continue treatment, right?
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Camille: Yeah, yeah.
Patrik: But what’s not, bear in mind that patient that we were dealing with in Fargo was never brain-dead. And I’m still not clear whether your brother has been diagnosed with brain-dead or not. It’s not quite clear to me from the documents that you sent to me. It’s very vague because if somebody is brain-dead, they’re dead, they’re legally dead. And it doesn’t sound to me like your brother is legally dead. It doesn’t sound to me like
that.
Camille: Yeah. So it’s-
Patrik: They have never mentioned that.
Camille: If there’s a way that Thaddeus Pope, if there’s a way that he can talk to a lawyer if he can, I would.
Patrik: Yes, yeah, yeah, that would be your last resort.
Camille: That’s my last.
Patrik: Yeah.
Camille: And it’s like by the minute if he can talk to him and say, “Hey, can you take on this case?”
Patrik: Yeah.
Camille: “Can you do urgent.” Then we can go from there.
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Patrik: Yup. Okay, look, what time is it now? So for you, it’s 10:00 PM at night?
Camille: Oh yeah, almost 10:30 PM.
Patrik: 10:30 PM. So he’s in a different time zone than you are.
The 1:1 consulting session will continue in next week’s episode.
Kind Regards
