Hi, it’s Patrik Hutzel from INTENSIVECAREHOTLINE.COM where we instantly improve the lives for Families of critically ill Patients in Intensive Care, so that you can make informed decisions, have PEACE OF MIND, real power, real control and so that you can influence decision making fast, even if you’re not a doctor or
a nurse in Intensive Care!
This is another episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED” and in last week’s episode I answered another question from our readers and the question was
My Brother is Brain Dead in the ICU. Can the ICU Team Legally Withdraw Treatment Against my Brother’s Living Will?
You can check out last week’s question by clicking on the link here.
In this week’s episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED” I want to answer questions from one of my clients Camille, as part of my 1:1 consulting and advocacy service! Camille’s brother is considered brain dead in the ICU and she
is asking if it is true that once a patient is legally dead, then his/her preference of living will does not matter?
My Brother is Brain Dead in the ICU. Is it True that if a Patient is Legally Dead, Then His/Her Preference of Living Will Does Not Matter?
“You can also check out previous 1:1 consulting and advocacy sessions with me and Camille here.”
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Patrik: Yeah, you will. Now, you will need a lawyer. You will need a lawyer, especially with an injunction, right? You will need a lawyer. One way out of this dilemma could be that you could potentially send him to another state. Right? And-
Camille: I tried that but he says there is no hospital in this country-
Patrik: Well, yeah, but you see with one of our client’s loved one, she was able to be transferred to another state. All you need in another state is a hospital that admits him, and you need a state that doesn’t define brain dead as dead. Right? And as I said, I know that New Mexico is one of those States. Right? When are you going back into the hospital now? Are you still planning to go back there tonight or…
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Camille: Well, I wanted to go back there tonight but I think I’d better not because they’ll be waiting there. Because that nurse or whoever it is will be there to try a confrontation and I just don’t want to put my mom through all of that.
Patrik: Yeah. Yeah. So, what I’ll do is I will have a look at the North Dakota law and I will email Professor Pope. I will copy you in. Okay? What time is it for you now? Must be like five o’clock?
Camille: Yeah, five o’clock. I’m up until two in the morning.
Patrik: Right. No, no. Because as I said, usually Professor Pope responds within 24 hours, even on a weekend, because a lot of the work that we are doing is on weekends. I think that’s actually the first thing that I’ll do. I’ll email him and I’ll copy you in. And I will look up the North Dakota law and see what I can find and I will email you and then we can talk again. I’ll be guided by you, but let me see what Professor Pope responds back with
and then we’ll see what happens next. But if you do go to the hospital, please ask for the policy one way or another, right? So let me do some research and I’ll be in touch, okay?
Camille: Okay. Thank you so much.
Patrik: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Camille: Bye.
Camille: Hello, it’s Camille.
Patrik: Hi Camille, it’s Patrik here from Intensive Care Hotline. How are you?
Camille: I’m fine thank you. I was just thinking about you.
Patrik: Did you receive the-
Camille: I just received the letter from Pope, Thaddeus. From Thaddeus Pope.
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Patrik: Yeah, he responded.
Camille: And he said, “First, someone must be mistaken on the facts.”
Patrik: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Camille: If the patient is dead then patient preferences do not matter.
Patrik: Correct.
Camille: But what does he mean by that?
Patrik: So what he means by that is if your brother is brain dead, he’s dead legally. He’s legally dead if he’s brain dead.
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Okay? But I didn’t hear that from them. They didn’t say that. They said he’s brain dead but they never said he’s legally dead. Because if somebody is legally dead then they don’t need a DNR. Right?
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right?
Camille: Exactly.
Patrik: So I don’t think your brother is legally dead. Okay?
Camille: Praise the Lord.
Patrik: Right?
Camille: Okay. Say that one more time so I can write it down.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah. No, no, no.
Camille: He is not legally dead. I just love it.
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Patrik: If somebody is legally dead, they don’t need a DNR, do they? I mean they’re dead.
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: Right?
Camille: Right, right, right.
Patrik: But they never said he’s legally dead. They never said that.
Camille: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. Exactly.
Patrik: Take this example from Nadine M. again, this girl in Oklahoma a few years back. She was legally dead in the State of Oklahoma, but she wasn’t legally dead in New Mexico. Right?
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: You can see where the differences are. And if somebody is legally dead, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are dead on a spiritual level. And I’m not here to tell people what they should believe or shouldn’t. That’s not my role.
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right?
Camille: Yeah.
Patrik: If somebody drops dead, a DNR has no time or place whatsoever.
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Camille: Yes.
Patrik: If somebody is alive, a DNR has its time and its place. And they have never said that your brother is legally dead. They have never said that. Or have they said that maybe a few weeks back?
Camille: Yes. No, they never said that he was legally dead.
Patrik: Never, no? That’s right.
Camille: They just said this document proves that he is brain dead.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah.
Camille: It never said legally dead.
Patrik: Correct. Correct. So, from that perspective, I believe your next step is to follow up with the links that Professor Pope provided.
Camille: And you know what? That’s so amazing because my sister, she just called me and she says, “Camille,” she said, “There is this little girl that is brain dead and the hospital trying to pull the plug on her too.” She says, “Call the newspaper. Call them.”
Camille: So I called them. I left them a message. I also sent an email to the guy who recorded the program and was speaking about it. And I also called the attorney, and I left him a message. And that’s the same thing that Thaddeus Pope… That’s the same thing that he said.
Camille: He was saying in his email to me, “If the patient is dead, then patient preferences do not matter.”
Patrik: No, of course not. The patient is dead. I mean, if somebody’s dead, they’re dead.
Patrik: So here is my advice for you on a clinical level. On a clinical level, one of your next steps is… and again, I’m happy to get on the phone again with them. Your next step is to ask for the Brain-death policy because I can’t find anything online whatsoever. I can’t find anything. They’re referring to the North Dakota brain-death testing, whatever, policy. I can’t find anything. Right?
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Camille: Okay.
Patrik: And because they are doing something that’s potentially life or death, they need to provide evidence to you.
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right?
Camille: And they cannot do it. They gave me a document.
Patrik: They have?
Camille: Yes. They gave me a document, and the document is the one that I read to you. It’s called Nuclear Medicine Brain Limited Blood Flow.
Patrik: Can you email that to me? Can you email that to me?
Camille: I just got a new printer and it doesn’t scan.
Patrik: Can you take a picture on your phone? Can you take a picture on your phone?
Camille: Yeah, I think I can try to do that. Let me see, I might be able to use my mom’s phone.
Patrik: If you can take a picture on your phone and then email it to me?
Camille: Okay.
Patrik: I need to see it. I need to see it.
Camille: Okay.
Patrik: And once you’ve done that then I will advise of the next steps. Media, definitely media. Definitely talk to the media, and definitely… As I said, now that we’ve got some clarity from Professor Pope… I mean he’s clearly saying, “Yep, somebody is wrong. I do believe the hospital is wrong because your brother is not legally dead.”
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right?
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: And that’s why Pope is so good. He’s got his own blog as well. He’s blog is good. It’s mainly legal advice, but it’s still very good; if you Google Medical Futility Blog. He’s got a great blog. He’s updating people about policy changes and whatnot. Anyway, that’s not our discussion now.
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Patrik: But anyway, if you can send me that, and then I can advise you?
Camille: Okay.
Patrik: Then I can advise you on a clinical level what to do next.
Camille: Okay. I’ll do my best to go ahead and enlarge this and see you if I can get it. I’ve never done this before, but I’ll try my best.
Patrik: And then probably-
Camille: And by the way, Monday is a holiday.
Patrik: Ah, okay. Well you can get an injunction over the weekend. You can get an injunction.
Camille: Oh really?
Patrik: Oh yeah. Talk to this lawyer, talk to this lawyer.
Camille: Okay.
Patrik: And when you’re saying Monday is a holiday, that’s in North Dakota only?
Camille: No, it’s all over.
Patrik: All over?
Camille: And I’m not sure which holiday it is, but I can find out.
Patrik: That’s all right. You’ve got to get hold of this lawyer over the weekend. You’ve got to get hold of this attorney over the weekend.
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Camille: Yeah. I just called and left a message with the secretary, and they said that they’ll get back to me as soon as possible. And I’m just, “Wow, this is just so amazing.” I mean you should be out there more often. It’s everywhere.
Patrik: We are out there. I’m talking to-
Camille: I had no idea. All this time I’ve been looking and reading and trying. And it’s been very, very difficult for me. And I’ve been trying to… Actually, I’ve been fighting these guys on my own, just with my own knowledge and now actually talking to a neurologist/neurosurgeon in ICU, in Chicago, Illinois.
Patrik: Right.
Camille: He is the number one doctor and he is just, “How did you get my number?” I’ve tried to call him. I can’t get back. I don’t know who he is, but they did give me his information, and hopefully, he would be able to clarify.
Camille: But he did say that this could be a dire situation and you could be in a lot of trouble with this hospital. He did mention that. He says, “But don’t give up and don’t give in.” Those were his words. He said, “Because the stem can regenerate itself.”
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Patrik: Right, right. You see, an ICU or a hospital is trying to find a solution to manage their hospital.
Camille: Yes.
Patrik: Right? And that’s not to say that they’re not trying to help people. I’m not saying that at all. But what I am saying, especially in those situations, they’re trying to find a solution for their hospital, not for your brother.
Camille: Yes, exactly.
Patrik: Right? And if somebody comes in with something minor, of course, they want to help people. I’m not disputing. But in a situation like that where it’s life or death, the dynamics change completely.
Camille: Yes, yes. I understand.
Patrik: Right?
Camille: So, I’m so grateful.
Patrik: That’s great. That’s great. So my advice is, can you please send me that stuff? And then I’ll have a read and then I’ll tell you what to do next.
Camille: Okay. I will do that right now.
Patrik: Okay. Thank you.
Camille: I’ll go ahead and take a picture.
Patrik: Thanks.
Camille: Thank you so much, I appreciate it. I’ll just try and take the picture.
Patrik: Okay.
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Camille: I’ll try and forward it to you.
Patrik: Thank you. Bye.
Camille: Thanks again. Thanks. Bye.
Patrik: Bye.
The 1:1 consulting session will continue in next week’s episode.
Kind Regards
