Hi, it’s Patrik Hutzel from INTENSIVECAREHOTLINE.COM where we instantly improve the lives for Families of critically ill Patients in Intensive Care, so that you can make informed decisions, have PEACE OF MIND, real power, real control and so that you can influence decision making fast, even if
you’re not a doctor or a nurse in Intensive Care!
This is another episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED“ and in last week’s episode I answered another question from our readers and the question was
My Mom Died in ICU. How Can I Get Clinical Evidence Where the Medical Negligence Is? Please Help!
You can check out last week’s question by clicking on the link here.
In this week’s episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED” I want to answer questions from one of my clients Bea, as part of my 1:1 consulting and advocacy service! Bea’s mom is brain dead in ICU
and Bea is asking if the ICU team wants to “pull the plug” because of organ donation?
My Mom is Brain Dead in ICU. Do They Want to “Pull the Plug” Because of Organ Donation?
“You can also check out previous 1:1 consulting and advocacy sessions with me and Bea here.”
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Bea: After 45 my mother’s heart rate comes up, BP goes down, which is blood pressure. The heart rate went up to 155, the nurse was very nervous. So, they stopped the dialysis in ICU. He believes that they want to do dialysis continually while she’s not even alive yet.
Bea: Okay. On 12/30 I talked to Dr. John, that’s a neurologist and said about other EEG and CT brain … And they want to do for CT brain trying to do the test that determined her brain was working and they want to pull the plug. But I refused.
Bea: 11/21 in the evening, the CT says already there, but it says she’s not completely out of the danger. I talked to the nurse supervisor ICU brain about the negligence and concerns over Sunday’s event, which was 19th. He understood and said he will address to Mary, who was the manager on ICU.
RECOMMENDED:
Bea: It’s like that.
Patrik: So-
Bea: And a lot of things-
Patrik: So, I don’t quite understand why she is on dialysis?
Bea: Well, she was on dialysis three times a week, regularly.
Patrik: Okay. Even before the hospital admission?
Bea: Yeah, she is an end stage renal patient.
Patrik: Okay, was she on dialysis while she was in ICU?
Bea: Yes.
Patrik: Yeah, that’s-
Bea: They want to do a dialysis an hour after she gained heart and she was not even alive. I refused it and then that was dangerous because she just gained the heart rate. You want to do a dialysis that goes through every blood. You may stop her. I told her not so she didn’t do it at the first and then I just read you. She did it on the 21st then they did it the 45 minutes and stopped because her heart rate goes up, blood pressure goes up and
could be damaging to her because that’s not good.
Bea: She doesn’t need really dialysis. She had no food, nothing in her. They just want to earn some extra money. Do you know what I’m saying?
RECOMMENDED:
Patrik: I agree.
Bea: That can be checked was all the insurance later we know how much they charge for it. They probably charged for the full dialysis. I don’t know.
Patrik: Yeah. That’s probably another thing you should be looking for. Get the insurance records.
Bea: We don’t care about that. So, I’m a little concerned about these lawyers. Do you know any good lawyers in the US that is in this area?
Patrik: Absolutely, yes. So, I mentioned a little bit.
Bea: If you can refer me a few, I want to talk to them.
Patrik: Yeah, I-
Bea: Because this attorney we are just started so. .
Patrik: So, I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I will send an introduction email to Professor Pope. That’s his name. That’s the lawyer in Minnesota, okay? His name is Thaddeus Pope. And what I’ll do is I will … What’s your email address again?
RECOMMENDED:
Bea: Its beagreen@gmail.com.
Patrik: Okay. I got it. When we come off this call, I will send you a link to professor Pope’s blog. But I would also send an introduction email, right? And then you can run from there. It’s worthwhile having a chat to him.
Bea: Okay.
Patrik: I do believe he’s, he’s the authority in the field in the States.
Bea: In the area of ICU, right?
Patrik: End of life disputes and ICU.
Bea: Okay, that’s good. Is he actually a lawyer file lawsuits?
Patrik: I’m pretty sure he’s doing that. There was a case recently in Salt Lake City, in Utah, where there was a dispute about a child being brain dead and I believe he was the family’s attorney and he was actually in the media. There were some interviews.
Bea: Oh, I know that. I know that.
Patrik: Yeah, that was him. That was him.
Bea: I don’t remember the outcome of that.
Patrik: I believe the child is still alive. I believe they’ve provided enough evidence to keep the child alive. That’s was the latest that I’ve heard.
Bea: Because brain dead many times can regain. You never know.
Patrik: Absolutely.
Bea: As you said, if they’re brain dead, that means … So, you were talking about brain dead are really dead.
RECOMMENDED:
Patrik: Yeah, but-
Bea: They’re really-
Patrik: Yeah, but before you declare somebody’s brain that there needs to be some testing from two independent parties. But here’s the thing, even if two independent parties confirmed brain dead … So, I’ll tell you what’s happened in this state actually in Kentucky a few years back. Have you heard of Sarah B.? Does that name ring a bell?
Bea: No.
Patrik: So, I’ll give you the short version. A 13-year-old girl had a cardiac arrest in 2013 in Kentucky after surgery. And she had what the doctors deemed was irreversible brain damage and she was confirmed as being brain dead by two independent parties, okay? So the hospital then wanted to stop life support, but the family went to court, and the family was able to stop the hospital from withdrawing life support.
RECOMMENDED:
Patrik: Now what they did as a next step, they transferred their daughter to New Orleans, Louisiana where she lived for another four years on a ventilator. Because Louisiana has a different law compared to Kentucky when it comes to brain dead. Now, I’m not a lawyer as you
know, but there was a lot of controversy around the case. The girl lived for another four years. She just passed away about four weeks ago. It’s very recent.
Bea: Wow.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah.
Bea: So, she lived for an extra year. Did she ever gain consciousness?
Patrik: Well, the family claims yes. The family put some videos on YouTube. She was bed bound. She was immobile as far as I could see on the videos. Google Sarah B. and look for yourself.
Bea: Can you send me an email of the attorneys and you send that to me?
Patrik: Yeah, yeah. I will do that.
Bea: Okay. So, what do you think so far of this issue?
Patrik: Yeah, yeah. I’ll tell you what I think so far, I am not surprised. I have seen this over and over again. I talk to people almost every day who come with a similar situation and they say, “Oh, if we had only known that an advocacy service exists, blah, blah, blah.”
Patrik: I do believe you can go very far with this, but you need all the evidence. That’s the missing link. You don’t have the evidence at the moment.
Bea: That’s fine, yes.
Patrik: So, we need to get the evidence and then we can take the next steps.
Bea: Okay, the records.
Patrik: You need to get the records. You need to get them as quickly as possible.
RECOMMENDED:
Bea: I have … Well, the attorney. But here’s the thing, I’m thinking what the law there for them to see that brain dead has to pull the plug is different from my state.
Patrik: No, no, no, no. I’ll tell you another thing. So, when this whole issue came up with brain dead, you mentioned that they asked you about organ donation, did they?
Bea: They did.
Patrik: Right and you were refused obviously.
Bea: Right.
Patrik: Right. Okay. Okay. So, you know when somebody is brain dead, I have seen more than once that patients up being kept alive whilst they’re brain to harvest organs. So, you could keep them alive for another few days on life support, okay? It’s just the brain that’s dead.
Bea: But I don’t think she’s just dead, she’s responding to my calling.
Patrik: Yeah, well then she’s not brain dead.
Bea: And then also the test didn’t show she’s brain dead. I thought it was funny because I just read the record indicate they had a positive test as apnea on the 21st but they didn’t test was done on the 22nd in the morning.
Patrik: Yeah. But even so, even if they’ve done an apnea test that somebody can be apneic. Anybody can stop breathing at any time. It doesn’t mean that they’re brain dead. We can go back and forth about that. We need to see the medical records. It’ll all be in the medical records.
Bea: Okay. Give me an email, email some address where I can mail it to you.
Patrik: Yes, I will. I will, yes.
Bea: So, we can go somewhere because I have a least a good portion of it.
Patrik: Yeah, I will.
Bea: To look at.
Patrik: Yeah. Please lookout for an email. I would send you an email in the next couple of hours with all the information. I’ll make an introduction to professor Pope, right? He’s pretty good in responding, right? And I’ll also send you a link to his blog because there are hundreds of cases on his blog that talk about what we’ve talked about.
RECOMMENDED:
Bea: Okay, so similar area.
Patrik: Very similar. He’s just approaching it from a legal perspective whereas I approach it from a clinical sort of moral-ethical perspective.
Bea: Now, I have a witness here. She seemed to get into the employment law here because of all that and she seemed to be anxious to get the things going. So, I was trying to take time to look for an attorney, but she seemed to be anxious. And without her I think this may not be going anywhere.
Patrik: And that witness is the nurse you have been referring to or?
Bea: No, no, no that’s the nurse, I told you, contacted me regarding the whole thing. She actually reported everything. So, she actually anxious about the whole thing.
Patrik: And why is she anxious?
Bea: Because she had an employment lawsuit.
Patrik: Right.
Bea: They actually did not get for any more hours after that.
Patrik: I see.
Bea: And then she is a union worker so they can’t fire her. Now, they can’t fire her right now because they’re afraid she did report everywhere.
Patrik: Yeah, yeah. Okay. But it’s good that somebody within the hospital reported it is, I think it’s great.
Bea: Yeah. I don’t know if … See, I was thinking that earlier I have said that question. I don’t know who was responsible on the ICU floor because when she transferred from the floor to the ICU, the ICU was taking over.
Patrik: So, you think she was a nurse who had like in-charge responsibilities. Is that what you think?
Bea: Well, I think some doctor was, and they were trying to get rid of her there.
RECOMMENDED:
Patrik: Right, right. But even so, yes there would be a doctor in charge, but that would also be a nurse in charge. Usually post.
Bea: Yeah, they give me a hard time. I can’t believe it. They abused me. So, those have to be paid.
Patrik: Right, right.
Bea: They give me a horrible time. I think they really afraid I will do something. Because they took advantage of me being sad and weak. Didn’t know what to do.
Patrik: Right. Right. And I guess you didn’t know what to expect either. You didn’t know what to expect. You didn’t know-
Bea: I don’t know any of them. I was helpless. Don’t know what’s going on? Nothing. This has never happened before. How many times this happened? Nobody does.
Patrik: No. It’s a once in a lifetime situation, right? And even though I’ve seen it countless times, even though in a hospital … It’s not a day to day occurrence, don’t get me wrong, I think it’s not. Because I’ve been in ICU for so long, I’ve seen it often enough to know that it’s happening. But you see, the other thing that people don’t know is, you know when people go into ICU, 90% of ICU patients survive.
RECOMMENDED:
Bea: Yeah.
Patrik: Okay? So, you imagine you’re going into ICU or your mother goes into ICU. If you had known oh, 90% of ICU patients survive, you probably would have looked at this very differently from the start. You would’ve thought in the back of your mind-
Bea: No, no, no. I think my mother was able to recover.
Patrik: Right.
Bea: Because I see her … Because I have an instinct. I know she takes time, I told them to just give her … She was so lacking in nutrition, she had not eaten anything. They only get her one time the nutrition back and then didn’t give for anymore. If they continued giving, she’d gain the strength in her body that would support her circulation because she was starving before, remember?
RECOMMENDED:
Patrik: Yeah, yeah.
Bea: She was starved to death. Those are like vehicles, without anything, you can’t run.
Patrik: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
The 1:1 consulting session will continue in next week’s episode.
Kind Regards
