Hi, it’s Patrik Hutzel from INTENSIVECAREHOTLINE.COM where we instantly improve the lives for Families of critically ill Patients in Intensive Care, so that you can make informed decisions, have PEACE OF MIND, real power, real control and so that you can influence decision
making fast, even if you’re not a doctor or a nurse in Intensive Care!
This is another episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED“ and in last week’s episode I answered another question from our readers and the question was
My Wife Had a Brain Death Test in the ICU. Why Are They in a Hurry to Kill Her?
You can check out last week’s question by clicking on the link here.
In this week’s episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED” I want to answer questions from one of my clients Francis as part of my 1:1 consulting and advocacy service! Francis’ wife
had a brain death test in the ICU without consent and she is asking why they are not providing her with the hospital’s end of life or withdrawal of treatment policy.
My Wife Has Been Declared Brain-Dead in the ICU. Why are They in a Hurry to Withdraw Treatment to Her?
Francis: Okay, I handed … Are you the lead doctor on this? Yeah, I have the lead doctor here now.
Patrik: Okay great.
Francis: So I’m going to put you on speaker.
Patrik: Thank you.
Francis: This is Patrik.
Doctor A: Hi, Patrik, my name’s Amy, I’m one of the IC physicians.
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Patrik: Great, my name is Patrik. I’m Francis’ cousin. Now we have a few questions in regards to your plan moving forward. So you want to do the second brain death testing this afternoon, is that correct?
Doctor A: Yes.
Patrik: And then potentially withdraw life support this afternoon?
Doctor A: Correct. If after the second brain death examine, at that time if there was no neurologic function and they’re actually setting up right now in the room to do an EEG, then he would actually be declared dead at that time.
Patrik: Okay, can you please give Francis your policy around brain death testing and your policy around withdraw of treatment? Can you do that in the next hour please?
Doctor A: Sure. And this is his, I’m sorry what relation to the …
Francis: Cousin.
Doctor A: Cousin, okay.
Patrik: Before you go ahead, please make sure that Francis has access to those policies and also, are you aware of the withdrawal of treatment law in New York?
Are you aware of that?
Doctor A: Yes, of course I am.
Patrik: Okay, do you know that you can’t withdraw treatment against families consent? Are you aware of that?
Doctor A: If that shows brain death sir, we’re not going to… If you’re going to ask these questions, about legal issues like this, we’re going to have to have you speak with our lawyers that represent the hospital because with these questions on policies and things…
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Patrik: Okay. That’s not what we asked. We asked to have access to those policies in the next hour, are you clear on those questions? On those requests? Is there something you don’t understand about those requests?
Doctor A: Oh sir, I can understand that, thank you. I will…
Patrik: Okay can you make sure that before you do anything, that Francis has access to those policies? And if he doesn’t have access to those polices, we will talk to our lawyer.
Doctor A: Okay.
Francis: We don’t have a right to access to those….
Case Manager: We will need you to speak with our legal department, and those people will have to try and get that ball rolling for you, that’s not something…
Francis: Well don’t you think get that ball rolling, that could take some time and you guys are wanting to do the brain dead test this afternoon and so before we proceed forward with that, I need to have available to me what the brain dead policy is and what the end of life policy is at the hospital.
Case Manager: Sure.
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Doctor A: Yep. We will discuss it with our legal team…
Francis: That’s fine. Right. We don’t want to proceed with the second testing and I don’t want to consent to the second testing.
Case Manager: Yes.
Francis: Well just know that you’ll be doing that against my family and my will.
And I’m asking for the policy on that before you go forward and I mean if you guys disconnect my wife then I’ll be looking at that as murder because I’m asking you guys for that. You guys are refusing to give that to me for whatever reason.
Case Manager: Alright so you just. They just seem that as not going to be accepted for you to stay.
Francis: I can have an opinion.
Doctor A: Well you can have that opinion, but now that you’ve voiced it, I’m going to exit the room, okay?
Francis: Yeah you can do that.
Doctor A: Alright because that’s just not… Okay. Fair enough. But you just accused me of going through with a crime.
Francis: That’s fine to have an opinion. I’m going to view that as murder. And I have a witness too.
Doctor A: I’m going to step out, okay?
Francis: Yeah.
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Francis: Is she going to give me that card too because she left you with it?
Patrik: Pardon?
Francis: Yeah I’m here.
Patrik: Yeah I know. I’ve listened to what you’ve said and I think you’ve had to come to this point because otherwise they would just do whatever they were going to do and do you have at the moment, do you have anybody else with you?
Is there any other family with you at the moment?
Francis: Yes, my daughter.
Patrik: Okay. Anybody else? Do you have witnesses for all of this?
Francis: Yes.
Patrik: Okay. How old is your daughter, if I may ask? Is she a minor?
Francis: No, she’s an adult. She’s twenty.
Patrik: Okay great. Great. With everything that’s happened to this point, did you have any other family involved in this? Is there any other family members that have been part of this?
Francis: Yes.
Patrik: Right. Right. And I would hope that all of your other family members who are part of this are all supporting of what you want, in terms of they shouldn’t go ahead with this?
Francis: They are.
Patrik: Right, right. So you’re all on the same page?
Francis: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
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Patrik: Okay. The next step is – you need to get those policies. Once you’ve got those policies, we will need to look at them. But even more so, it doesn’t really matter what the policy says because the law overrides the policies. Right. They must have some policies, but the law in New York overrides the policies.
Patrik: Are you there?
Francis: Yes, I’m here.
Patrik: Okay. So you’ve gotta give them a little bit of time to give you access to those policies. Okay. Give them an hour or so. If, for whatever reason, they are going ahead with what they’re proposing, I do believe your only option is to potentially go to a lawyer or potentially even go to the police.
Francis: Okay.
Patrik: Right. One thing that I always say, you’ve contacted me at the very last minute. If we had three days to work up to this, we would have achieved a lot more.
Francis: Right.
Patrik: People always come to me when it’s very very late or when it’s too late.
I’m not saying it’s too late, but as you can see, WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS two days ago, three days ago, a week ago.
Patrik: Who else was in your family is involved? Does your wife have sibling or who else if I may ask?
Francis: Yes. Yes. Siblings.
Patrik: Right, right. Okay, okay.
Patrik: I think for now, let the dust settle. Let’s give them an hour or so to give you those policies. Okay? And then we’ll take the next steps but for now, give them a little bit of time. And you may have to consider, that if for whatever reason, they’re doing what they’re proposing to do to go to the police. You have to consider that.
Francis: Okay.
Patrik: And you gotta take that end of life care law in New York. That’s your fall-back document.
Francis: Okay.
Patrik: That is your fall-back document.
Francis: Okay.
Patrik: You have a leg to stand on. Okay? You’re not making claims out of nowhere. You have a leg to stand on. Right. They are acting dumb by saying “Look, we’re the doctors. We know what we’re doing.” They’re acting dumb because nobody is questioning. You have a clear leg to stand on with this end of life care legislation in New York. That is black and white.
Patrik: I do believe they’re not going to do anything. Right. Because they know that they could be in trouble. What are they doing at the moment? Have you left the room or are you still in the room?
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Francis: No. No, they have.
Patrik: They have left the room. Right. And you are still in the room?
Francis: Yes.
Patrik: Okay, okay. I would also suggest that if they want to meet with you- and that could be the next step, they may want to meet with you. Right.
Francis: Yes.
Patrik: Before you go into any meeting, you need to know the agenda of the meeting. You need to change everything from now on. You can’t go on as you were because they were leading you up to this. You need to change everything about how you interact with them.
Francis: Okay.
Patrik: Get those policies and refer back to the law. I do believe what we’ve done to this point is enough to stop them for now. I do believe it’s enough. If it’s not enough, you have to go to the police or you have to get a lawyer involved. But usually, the threat with the lawyer is usually enough to get them off your back for a while.
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Francis: Okay.
Patrik: Give your wife time. Alright?
Francis: Alright thank you.
Patrik: You’re very welcome. All the best for now.
Francis: Okay.
Patrik: Bye bye.
Patrik: Patrik speaking, how can I help?
Francis: Hi Patrik, this is Francis. How you doing?
Patrik: Very good, how’re you?
Francis: Good, I was calling to let you know that they came in and they didn’t give me a policy for nothing. So they’re getting ready to do the brain test protocol now, anyway.
Patrik: So, you said … Repeat that again please, so what have they done?
Francis: Nothing. They haven’t given me the policy.
Patrik: Uh-huh.
Francis: Or anything. They’re getting ready to the protocol and offered them a respirator.
Patrik: Okay, you need to go to the police or you need to go to get a lawyer involved at this point in time. I can’t help you any longer … I can’t help you any further than this. So you’re saying they’re getting ready to take him off the ventilator and do the brain testing? And they
haven’t given you the policy?
Francis: They didn’t give me the policy.
Patrik: They haven’t?
Francis: No. They didn’t give me anything.
Patrik: Okay. Have you asked again?
Francis: Yes, I asked again.
Patrik: Mm-hmm (affirmative) so you have asked twice? And what is their response?
Francis: Well they gave me their legal department. I think they got a little scared after you called me earlier.
Patrik: Okay, you need to … In order to stop this because your wife could be literally dead in a couple of hours, you need to go to the police with that withdrawal of treatment policy. With that withdrawal of treatment
law, I should say. You need to go to the police or you need to talk to a lawyer to stop them.
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Francis: Right. Yeah. I am. Okay. Thanks.
Patrik: Yeah, ring the police first, see what they say, and if that doesn’t go anywhere, get to talk to a lawyer.
Francis: Okay. Alrighty, thanks.
Patrik: Okay, thank you so much. Thank you.
Francis: Alright.
Patrik: Bye.
The 1:1 consulting session will continue in next week’s episode.
