Hi, it’s Patrik Hutzel from INTENSIVECAREHOTLINE.COM where we instantly improve the lives for Families of critically ill Patients in Intensive Care, so that you can make informed decisions, have PEACE OF MIND, real power, real control and so that you can influence decision making fast, even if you’re not a doctor or a nurse in Intensive
Care!
This is another episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED“ and in last week’s episode I answered another question from our readers and the question was
My Husband In The ICU Is Doing Better? Why Does The ICU Team Push towards Withdrawal Of Treatment?
You can check out last week’s question by clicking on the link here.
In this week’s episode of “YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED“ I want to answer the succeeding questions from one of my clients Melanie as part of my 1:1
consulting and advocacy service! Melanie is asking about the steps involved in transferring her dad to a private hospital.
My Dad in the ICU Deteriorates With Limited Treatment. Is It a Good Decision to Transfer Him To Another Private Hospital?
“You can also check out previous 1:1 consulting and advocacy sessions with me and Melanie here.”
PART 1
Melanie: Yes, that would be, that would be good, too.
Patrik: Yeah.
Melanie: Yeah. Prince of Vales, St. Ernest’s, St. Georgia. It’s actually probably, yeah, yeah, any of those.
Patrik: Yeah. And look there’s private ICUs in the western suburbs. There’s the Hills Public, there’s even Northmead Private I believe.
Melanie: Is Northmead Private any good?
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Patrik: I don’t know to be honest with you. I can tell you that St. Ernest’s Private, St. Georgia Private, and Prince of Vales Private, I have no concerns there.
Melanie: Yeah, let’s speak with those, let’s speak with those.
Patrik: The western suburbs I’m not all that familiar with their private ICUs.
Melanie: The other thing, too, that might be going with us for St. Georgia, is that my dad’s respiratory specialist he’s been seeing for years is actually based his clinic is at St. Georgia Private.
Patrik: Okay. Have you got the direct contact there?
Melanie: To contact him?
Patrik: Yes.
Melanie: I tried to do that but I couldn’t get past his secretary.
Patrik: Okay. Because that might be a person who might get your dad into this hospital.
Melanie: Okay, but if he’s unavailable tomorrow we might have to go with the director, the CEO, but let them know that he’s under the care already of Dr. Miller.
Patrik: I think that is definitely, I think if we can go back to St. Georgia Private and can say we’ve got a patient of Dr. Miller, is that his name?
Melanie: Miller.
Patrik: Miller. I think that puts a whole different spin on it straight away.
Melanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Patrik: So, if you can show them this is actually a patient of yours, there’s no harm in that whatsoever.
Melanie: Would they object if you signed on our behalf instead? I’ve got a client I’m working with.
Patrik: Probably not, because what I can do, I can tell you what my first phone call would be, will probably be with the bed manager at St. Georgia Private. The bed manager is the one who wants to fill beds on behalf of the director of nursing, CEO level. That is probably the first person that I’m going to contact, and if that doesn’t go anywhere then it can be escalated onto a director of nursing level.
Melanie: Yes.
Patrik: We’ve had a client recently here in Melbourne was at Monty Public ICU.
Again, similar story, wanted to withdraw life support. The family eventually wanted to transfer the patient to a private ICU which eventually happened, right? And I made lots of phone calls to private ICUs, so it’s definitely something I’m very happy to do.
Melanie: Yeah, yeah, I’d really appreciate that.
Patrik: Yes, absolutely. And if they wanted to talk to you, you know which they may want to do because you’re the closest kin then we’ll do that, but as a starting point, that’s what we’ll start to do. I’ll speak to a bed manager.
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Melanie: Yeah
Patrik: Find out whether they have beds and what not.
Melanie: Yeah. And then so what would happen beyond that? Say they hypothetically they say, “yes we can take the patient”
Patrik: Yes, the next thing they will as is either, does your dad have private health insurance?
Melanie: Yes.
Patrik: Okay that’s great. Okay. So that’s taking one worry away, then the next thing they’ll ask is who is going to refer this patient to whom? It would be great if this Dr. Miller can admit your dad into St. Georgia Private, that would be the best way. So, would he see a respiratory physician?
Melanie: Yes, he’s a respiratory specialist that my dad’s been with for number of years, and my dad has sleep apnea, so he got his CPAP organised for him. Yeah, he sees him on a regular basis for that.
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Patrik: Okay. So, the next store there is a respiratory physician would admit patients into ICU. At one point or another respiratory physician has patients in ICU, which again I believe makes the whole thing easier. If for example there was a dermatologist rarely has a patient in ICU …
Melanie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Patrik: Right? But the respiratory physician has patients in ICU, maybe not on a regular basis but certainly every now and then.
Melanie: So, if he’s not available tomorrow, what would happen then?
Patrik: What would happen then is one of the ICU specialists would have to admit the patient. The other thing that I am wondering is whether some of the ICU consultants at Wunderpool are ICU consultants at St. Georgia. There’s a very high chance that there’s overlap.
Melanie: You think so?
Patrik: I’m just, I will do that research a bit later. I will have a look on those websites. I do know that, yeah, certain public hospitals send consultants to certain private ICUs, and I know that nobody from Wunderpool ICU for example works at Prince of Vales.
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Melanie: Yeah.
Patrik: Right, I know that much. I’m just thinking about proximity. There’s a good chance that Wunderpool’s ICU consultants might work at St. Georgia, but doesn’t matter.
Melanie: But the thing is it’s still difficult, very difficult. Are they going to support us in moving him to a private facility?
Patrik: Look, they may because in a private hospital the rules are different. In a private hospital, your dad or any patient for that matter is more of a customer, and not a burden.
Melanie: Yeah.
Patrik: Right? At the moment your dad is seen as a burden.
Melanie: Yeah.
Patrik: Right? So, in a private hospital if they have beds available, I don’t see why they wouldn’t take him.
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Patrik: So, I’m just on St. Georgia Private ICU website. There are names of consultants. I will have a look whether some of those names are Wunderpool ICU as well.
Melanie: Do you want to read out some of those names?
Patrik: Yes. Jayson Wang.
Melanie: No. Don’t know.
Patrik: Lucas Park.
Melanie: No. No.
Patrik: Eric Lane.
Melanie: No.
Patrik: Cheryl Bach .
Melanie: No.
Patrik: Michael O’hara.
Melanie: No.
Patrik: Dr. Mandy Sevia.
Melanie: No.
Patrik: And associate Professor Gregg Kolkovski.
Melanie: No.
Patrik: Okay. Okay. And that’s it because it says there are seven specialists and there are seven names. So, you would, okay so we can safely say there is no overlap. Okay that’s out of the way for now. So, what we need is we need a bed in ICU and we need an intensivist at Wunderpool …
Melanie: Oh…
Patrik: Yeah, go on.
Melanie: I just had a thought. Oh, my goodness. My second cousin is a, he’s an orthopaedic surgeon at I know it’s St. Georgia Public, could he do private? I think he’s at private.
Patrik: Most likely.
Melanie: He’s an orthopaedic surgeon. I wonder if he could help us.
Patrik: Absolutely. Speak to him if you can. Definitely speak to him.
Melanie: Okay.
Patrik: Definitely speak to him.
Melanie: Alright. I’ll try and get a hold of him tomorrow.
Patrik: And do you know is your dad at the moment, is he a private patient at Wunderpool?
Melanie: Yes.
Patrik: A private patient? Okay. Well that’s good to a degree, and the reason I’m saying that if he is fully covered, because sometimes with private patients sometimes some things are not covered in ICU, but because he’s had the whole lot that’s good because sometimes with private health funds they may not cover one hundred percent of the things in ICU, but given that your dad has been through everything St. Georgia won’t have any concerns
in terms of what the health fund’s paying for and whatnot because that’s all been covered so far. So that’s good.
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Melanie: Yeah. Yeah.
Patrik: Ummm. Okay so here’s another question. Now that I know he’s a private patient in ICU at Wunderpool, so we’ve had this client here at Monty ICU and one of the strategies we pursued then, because that client at the time was admitted as a public patient, and because they had private health insurance we were trying to admit them as a private patient in the public ICU so that they wouldn’t stop treatment.
Melanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Patrik: Right? There’s usually more money to be made for them through a private patient, right? And that bought us a little bit of time then, but given that he’s already a private patient, you’re certain about that?
Melanie: Yeah, I had to find all the forms for a private health fund.
Patrik: Okay. Well that’s not an option then. What does your family think about getting him into a private hospital?
Melanie: They’re supportive. Nikki is supportive of me moving him. Is Marian?
Patrik: Yeah.
Melanie: Yes.
Patrik: Okay good. Good. No, no, that’s important. Okay. Well I think the next steps are can you send me your dad’s name, date of birth, health fund name, and also membership number or something like that?
Melanie: Yeah.
Patrik: Can you send me the name of the respiratory physician.
Melanie: Yeah. Yeah.
Patrik: And I think that’s it for a starting point.
Melanie: Okay. My second cousin definitely works out of St. Georgia Private. He’s a surgeon.
Patrik: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s good. That helps.
Melanie: But if I can’t contact him, maybe just tell them that he’s the cousin of Immanuel Machoney.
Patrik: I’ll just … Dr. Immanuel…
Melanie: Immanuel, Machoney. M-A-C-H-O-N-E-Y, and he’s an orthopaedic surgeon.
Patrik: I’m sure I can google him. Orthopaedic.
Melanie: And he’s under Dr. Miller’s care for respiratory.
Patrik: How do you spell that?
Melanie: Mon. Mon.
Patrik: Oh Mon?
Melanie: It’s Montantine, his full name. Miller. M-I-L-L-E-R.
Patrik: M-I-L-L-E …
Melanie: -R. Miller.
Patrik: And has your dad ever been an inpatient at St. Georgia Private?
Melanie: He’s been an inpatient at the public under Mon Miller two times.
Patrik: Okay. How long ago was that?
Melanie: Maybe five years ago or maybe about five?,
Patrik: Alright, but not at the private as an inpatient?
Melanie: No, he hasn’t been at, not one I can remember. No, I don’t think he’s been an inpatient there.
Patrik: Okay. Okay so what I’ll do tomorrow morning I will touch base with St. Georgia Private, probably start with a bed manager and see what the situation is and get back to you. If you could contact Dr. Miller directly, I think it would help.
Have you, when you said you’d spoken to the secretary, did you explain the situation?
Melanie: No because it was early days at that point. Dad had just fractured his ribs and it was the first week, and things hadn’t escalated to what they are now, but she basically said, “oh he doesn’t work out of that hospital so they’re welcome to contact us if they need to speak to us, to speak to him.” But yeah, I told Wunderpool at the time to call him and they said there was no need because it didn’t relate to what was happening
at the time, his cardiac issues and things like that.
Patrik: Okay. Let’s just say I’m just sort of trying to look ahead, it looks like your dad is making small improvements, however if he deteriorates, the doctors have made their point, they’ve drawn their line in the sand. God forbid, if he deteriorates and they’re not prepared to do what it takes to keep your dad, how do you feel about escalating your concerns onto a CEO level at Wunderpool or to a director of nursing level at this
point in time? Because I don’t think you are getting heard at the moment.
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Melanie: No, so what would be involved in that I’d have to contact them, and then what? What would happen from there?
Patrik: I don’t know what would happen from there, but even, if you, okay in a hospital if you bring a complaint onto the CEO, director of nursing level, they have to respond. They have to respond. And the reason they have to respond is, so hospitals are credited against healthcare standards, and one of the healthcare standards is related to patient satisfaction, and if a patient comes, well if they’re concerned, it falls back to the
next of kin or to the guardian, so they definitely have to respond. I also believe that if I was the CEO of a hospital I would want to know about things like that or if I was a director of nursing. I was up, in the past, I was up to the deputy director of nursing level, and that was private, but still even in a public hospital they would want to know about those conflicts. They do.
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Melanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Patrik: But I also understand your, you know I understand you’re sick and tired of all this.
Melanie: I am. I am. I am totally sick and tired, and I don’t want to invest energy into something that’s not going to bring much gain, and frankly even if, that complaint process could take days before anything’s done about it.
Patrik: Look, I can hear your frustration and I totally get it, right, but given that you have been banging your head against the wall with any of those consultants, I do believe you’re not achieving anything in there, and I’m almost bound to say you’ve got nothing to lose by escalating it. The end, if your dad deteriorates and they’re not doing anything, that could be the end of it, but if you do escalate it, you will get a response.
You will get a response there’s no doubt about that.
Melanie: But it doesn’t mean they’re going to do anything if he does deteriorate and we’re in this complaint process, that the doctor’s going to change his mind on anything.
The 1:1 consulting session will continue in next week’s episode.
Kind Regards
Patrik
